Comments on: Comparing Our Torture to Japan’s Torture?

By: candorville

candorville — Sat, 16 May 2009 05:12:15 +0000

That's been mentioned many times, and that excuse ignores a pretty obvious difference: our troops volunteer for this. If you think that difference is a small one, consider this: if two consenting adults stick plunger handles in each others' asses, that's not torture, that's kinky. But if the NYPD holds a prisoner on the ground and puts a plunger handle in his ass (as they did several years ago), I think you'd agree that that's torture. As an aside, I remember when the NAACP complained about the torture of Abner Louima, morally bankrupt talking heads on my TV responded by dismissing those complaints as self-righteous preening. Part of me would like to see what they'd say if it were done to them.

And while the Japanese did far worse to our people than we're doing to anyone, I don't follow the logic of pointing to our volunteers as a "clear indication" that the type of waterboarding Japan used was far and away worse than the method used today by the U.S. Every description I've come across has been virtually identical to what we've done.

By: Ken

Ken — Sat, 16 May 2009 02:28:37 +0000

Also, pointing out that some enemy at some point did something worse does not mean that what we have done is right. Darrin's strip may have stretched to make its point, but I much prefer reaching to a higher standard than stooping to the lowest. Bush promoted these wars as a struggle between evil and good–not evil and slightly less evil. He did this for a reason and would have served the nation better if he keep US foreign policy true to the standards he publicly espoused.

Am I self-righteous? Maybe, but my faith, philosophy, and basic humanity all tell me that a policy embracing torture is wrong. If conservatives can sing the praises of a beauty pageant contestant talking about values while standing before the world with fake breasts packed into an evening gown, people should let me say that torture is wrong without calling it "preening."

By: VGF05

VGF05 — Fri, 15 May 2009 21:47:56 +0000

One fact that was not mentioned–perhaps everyone was too busy with self-righteous preening–is that "waterboarding" is part of training for some of our own troops…and unless you think that we are subjecting our own soldiers to the same sort of torture that the Japanese used in WWII, this is a clear indication of the fact that the type of waterboarding Japan used was far and away worse than the method used today by the U.S.

By: candorville

candorville — Sat, 09 May 2009 17:34:05 +0000

I have to say, it felt good to read the cadet's e-mails (both the original and the reply). We need more people like him in the military. There's a famous cartoon from World War 1 that shows a headless soldier standing at attention, and the caption is "The perfect soldier." I don't think there's any place in a nation that considers itself the paragon of democracy for a "perfect soldier," whether in the military, CIA, or the West Wing. Democracies should be messy. They should be filled with people like Richard Clark (who resigned and exposed the Bush administration's web of lies that led to war) and Hugh C. Thompson (the helicopter pilot who faced down his fellow soldiers and civilians and stopped the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam).

Thank you for your comments, you've offered the most compelling reason I've ever heard for compulsory military service.

By: Craig Kelly

Craig Kelly — Sat, 09 May 2009 10:27:04 +0000

My father served in the Pacific theatre…I remember once while watching a movie with the Bataan Death March a scene where the guards applied "Chinese Water Torture" to an American prisoner…My father denounced this in vivid terms…It made an impression on me.

Later I served as first an enlisted man and then as a commissioned officer , via OCS. My experiences showed me that we must have universal service and not a voulunteer army…Too often "regular" army officers, NCOs and EMs would follow, without it seems a questions, orders while the draftees may be more reluctant to or would be more prone to send letters home about the situation.

Sorry, I'm getting off subject…Thank you for the discussion of this issue…and I want to commend the civility of the cadet.

By: fatherstorm

fatherstorm — Fri, 08 May 2009 04:17:48 +0000

The winners write the history books. Plain and simple. That is how something that was abhorrent and savage 60 years ago is a scientific and humane technique today. By the same stroke? Being the only nation to ever use Nuclear weapons in wartime, we also fully support destroying any nation that we believe should not have them, all the while offering scientific aid to countries we don’t mind having them, and pretending they don’ exist in countries we are incapable of attacking. This is neither a defense nor a castigation of our policies, the details make each situation too difficult to paint with the same brush, but does serve to remind us that we actively choose to color a “convenient” truth.

By: Ken

Ken — Thu, 07 May 2009 12:26:18 +0000

It's great to see a civil debate with people exchanging ideas and coming to a common understanding. It seems that for years we weren't having many of these debates. The administration and their allies had propagated the idea that simply raising these issues or asking certain questions was unpatriotic.
Now that we're having these discussions we're starting to see that Americans want to set a higher standard. Let's hope our leaders follow.

By: candorville

candorville — Thu, 07 May 2009 05:56:15 +0000

Thanks, Neil. The midshipman replied:

Mr. Bell,

Thank you very much for your timely response. It shows me that you value my feedback and that is something that is hard to find these days in the public sphere.

After hearing you explain yourself and where you are coming from, I can definitely see the point you were trying to make. I missed the point of the cartoon, I felt like you were comparing our modern instances of illegal waterboarding to the entire pantheon of Japanese war crimes.

I completely agree that our own government's use of torturous acts is highly disrespectful to our veterans who survived imprisonment at the hands of the Japanese.

"We adopted a criminal tactic from people like that. People who also found it perfectly acceptable to behead officers, force prisoners to eat excrement, beat them to death, crucify them, march them til they died, enslave them, etc. THESE are the people we took our lead from. And that is so disgraceful, so important, that we have to acknowledge it. America has been hiding from this conversation for years. It's time to stop pussyfooting around it and speak in stark, unequivocal terms." After reading this passage that you wrote, I definitely get the point of your cartoon.

I have been dismayed at the devolution of our government over the years, especially so in the last 8. There are many things that I see that make me wonder if things will ever be put right. I think that's a major reason that I am trying to commission into the Marine Corps and possibly pursue a job in government; if I can make a positive difference instead of letting the scum that inhabits the higher offices of our nation form policy, then I feel like I will have accomplished something.

there is still a part of me that wished that the cartoon was more clear; if I made the wrong conclusion, then perhaps others did as well.

anyway, thank you very much for such a swift and thorough response.

By: Neil

Neil — Thu, 07 May 2009 02:28:16 +0000

I think that a very well considered, and thoughtful, response. I hope that the midshipman agrees with that sentiment, even if s/he doesn’t agree with your points.
Neil